[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I’m Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that’s dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don’t get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we’ll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, first, it is a new reading year and that makes it a great time to start a new journal. No matter what your reading goals are for the year ahead, or if you even have any, keeping track of what you’re reading has a big impact on your reading satisfaction. Keeping track of what you think about each book is a powerful way to better understand what you love and why. And when you understand those things, it’s easier to know what else you might enjoy reading next, also, what titles are better left on your unread shelf.

[00:01:06] That’s why I designed my reading journal, My Reading Life, which makes the perfect companion for your year of reading. It’s thoughtfully compiled with book lists, quotes, and space to jot down notes about each book you read. Get yours at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop or at your local bookstore.

Readers, I talk to many seasonal readers and today’s guest has a twist on the usual seasonal reading dilemma. That’s because Nell Cavallo is joining me today from midsummer in Sydney, Australia.

When Nell sent in her guest submission for the show, and she did that at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest, she told us that for her, winter meant reading the shiny and new, but summer was for backlist titles. And she really loves reading backlist.

However, she agonizes over choosing what older books to read next, which she noted was really interesting because she doesn’t agonize over the shiny and new, she just jumps in. But there are so many good backlist books to read. She wants to make careful choices. She wants them to be the right ones and it can leave her feeling stuck.

[00:02:09] Today, we’re going to talk about it all. Plus, focus on books that provide her with that brain-fizzy feeling she loves, especially books that are emotionally resonant and intellectually stimulating.

Let’s get to it.

Nell, welcome to the show.

NELL CAVALLO: Hi, Anne. Thanks for having me.

ANNE: Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thanks so much for talking books today.

NELL: I am excited.

ANNE: Although, here’s a peep behind the scenes, listeners, you’re in Sydney, Australia, and I’m in Louisville, Kentucky, and finding a time where we’re both awake was a little bit more of a challenge than it typically is.

NELL: That is true. I come to you from the future. It’s Wednesday here, and I think it’s Tuesday there.

ANNE: Does that mean…? No, it doesn’t. I was wondering if Tuesday would not be What Should I Read Next? day in Australia. But we publish very early in the morning, so we can catch you in the afternoon or evening.

NELL: I do get it on a Tuesday. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. We were just saying that time zone math is not complicated, and yet I do not find it to be easy.

[00:03:11] NELL: It is not easy from Australia. We are in a completely different time zone, obviously, so calculating whenever my friends are awake in various parts of the world is not fun.

ANNE: Well, thank you for making the effort for the books.

NELL: Oh, it’s my pleasure. I’m really excited.

ANNE: Nell, tell our readers about yourself. We’d like to give everyone a glimpse of who you are.

NELL: Well, I am a Sydneysider, born and bred in Sydney. I love Sydney so much. I’m very passionate about this city. I think it’s a great place to live. I live a few blocks from the beach, which is fantastic in the summer, especially. And it is summer here at the moment, so I can pop down for a swim on my lunch break if I’m working from home. I try to get down there a lot. I love reading down at the beach as well. That’s one of my favorite things to do.

[00:04:08] I am a single gal in my 40s. I’ve got no kids, so I have a sort of relatively unusual life compared to a lot of other people, but it gives me a lot of time to really enjoy life, which is kind of a big philosophy of mine. You know, I’m all about just… you know, we get one chance on this planet, so go out and live it and enjoy it.

Sydney has great museums, and it’s got a great theatre scene. I have a ton of friends. I have a big family. My family’s Italian, so I have a lot of cousins. Yeah, I just love spending time with people. It’s my favorite thing.

ANNE: Tell me about your house of healing that you mentioned in your submission.

NELL: Oh, my house of healing. Yes, my little apartment. Well, because I do have a very independent life, I live alone, so there are no husbands or wives, no kids, no pets, no flatmates, and I just have this open-door policy with my friends and family that, you know, if they need a little bit of a break from their own life, they can come here and just sleep in the spare room and drink good wine and eat nice cheese or whatever it is that we have in the house, and we can just talk, and they can sort of let their problems go and, you know, leave their mum hat behind or their wife hat behind or their, you know, work hat behind and just come and just enjoy being in, hopefully, a bit of a calm and peaceful space.

[00:05:44] I have lots of bookshelves, and I always have bubbles in the fridge, and… you know, it’s just that kind of place. I want people to feel like they can come here and leave their worries behind and just, you know, enjoy being alone, maybe for a second, or away from the things that are bothering them.

ANNE: I love that for you. And also you said in your submission that it makes you really happy. But also I imagine it makes others happy as well.

NELL: It does make me happy. I love having people here. I think when you are single, which is partly by choice, you know, I chose this life, which is slightly different, I guess, from other lives, but I chose it because I really wanted to embrace being able to do things, have a life of learning and have a life of knowledge and have a life of, I don’t know, yeah, being around people all the time, which is my favorite thing. So I love having people here.

[00:06:40] But being single also means you do have to, you know, make the effort to be around people. I get asked a lot, are you ever lonely? And I’m like, Mate, I am never lonely. I wish I had time to be lonely. I don’t. There’s always people here. I’m always out. Yeah, it’s a great life. I love it.

ANNE: I’m glad to hear that. Now tell us about your reading life. What does that look like right now?

NELL: Well, look, if I’m not reading, like so many of your listeners, I’m sure I don’t feel like myself. I have always read. It’s sort of what I do to relax. The thing about Australia is that we are a little bit seasonally backwards to the rest of the world. So when the big summer releases come out or the big spring releases or the big fall releases, or autumn as we would say here, we are in a completely different season.

[00:07:35] So a lot of the time, you know, the big summer books, for example, come out in winter here. So by the time it gets round to summer, they’re done. I’ve read them. So I have to look for kind of other things to pick up, which is interesting. And that’s why in the summer I do tend to read a lot of backlist books because I feel like I’m kind of done with all of the big new releases by that point.

But I find my backlist TBR so overwhelming and I find it really hard to kind of not even know what to pick up. Yeah, I guess decide what to pick up, but also feel the same enthusiasm for picking up a backlist book. I feel like all of the buzzy titles are done throughout the year.

Part of the fun of reading for me is that I love talking to people about books. I’m on Bookstagram and I’ve made lots of bookish friends and yeah, I love being part of the dialogue, I guess, around books. I think with backlist quite often you’re reading something that nobody else is reading, which is partly exciting.

[00:08:41] And I have to say my backlist reading is usually really good. Like I enjoy so much of what I pick up, but I think a tiny part of me is like, Oh, I wish other people were reading this as well, so I can chat about it with them. But yeah. It’s summer here right now. I’ve read, I think, most of the big releases of the year and I don’t know what to pick up next.

ANNE: Well, you know what it sounds like. It sounds surprising to this US-based reader. I’m wondering if it’s because of your particular way of finding out about books, or if it’s because of what book coverage is like globally, at least US, UK to Australia, that you’re thinking about the big books of our summer being the big books of your winter.

How much does Australia have its own reading cultural landscape that would be informing your reading choices directly right there in your country where it is summer right now?

[00:09:40] NELL: Oh, look, Australia has a brilliant literary scene. I’m only sorry that the books don’t always make it sort of overseas. Sometimes they do, but I think we are so lucky to have amazing writers. It’s actually been a brilliant year for Australian new releases.

But I would say that it is still the same case where a lot of the big books are still done by this time of year. So we’re headed into a bit of a lull period with Christmas and New Year. That is that because it’s summer here, obviously, everybody’s on break.

So like you guys would have your summer holidays, I suppose, in July, we would have our summer holidays kind of now, just ahead of Christmas and right through January. That’s when the kids are off school. So it’s not really ideal, even though it is our summer when you would expect big books to be published. It actually is not ideal here because everybody is off work. So it’s not really a big time for books. Most of them have come out.

[00:10:44] ANNE: Okay. Now I’m just looking at your submissions where you say that summer reading is a great opportunity to read backlist books instead of the shiny and new, but you want to know how to pick good ones for the season.

NELL: Yes, that’s right. Like I said, I have so many backlist books that I want to get to, and I’m very distracted throughout the rest of the year with new releases. I always, always, always, always make the same reading resolution at the beginning of the year, which is read more backlist and don’t get distracted by new releases.

Because a lot of the time, this is the thing with me, I just want to read all the new releases, even if I don’t necessarily think they’re books that I would love, which is fine. I think it’s good to read different types of books, and I think it’s good to read books that you don’t necessarily love because you can always learn something there anyway. But it does affect the balance of books that I’m reading.

[00:11:42] So at the start of the year, I’m always like, right, I’m going to be super careful about what new releases I’m going to pick up and I’m going to really balance that with a good smattering of backlist throughout the year. And yeah, it falls flat. Most times I get to this time of year, and I’m like, oh.

ANNE: Well, I’d like to hear more about that. What happens?

NELL: I don’t do it, Anne. I don’t do it. It’s ridiculous. Honestly, the thing that’s funny is that I really agonize over what backlist books to even add to my TBR. I feel like in the backlist department, that’s when I’m spending the most time researching and reading reviews and trying to think, is this something I even would enjoy, and what’s this author about, and all of that kind of stuff. I’d spend a lot of time deep-diving into that before adding it to my pile.

But with new releases, mate, I walk into a shop and I come out with six new releases. I don’t even know what’s happened. It’s not good. It’s not good.

[00:12:43] ANNE: How do you feel about this? Do you wish things were different? Are you pretty happy with how it’s working out for you?

NELL: No, I do wish things were different because I want to be a more conscientious reader. Like I said before, our time on the planet is limited, so I don’t want to spend it always reading books that are not necessarily going to work for me when there are so many brilliant things that I could be picking up that are in the backlist department and that, for some reason, just don’t hold the same kind of shiny new toy feeling that the new releases do.

Part of the reason for that is because of how high my success rate is from an enjoyment factor when it comes to backlist. Maybe because I have done so much research into it, I tend to enjoy what I pick up. But yeah, I get very distracted throughout the rest of the year.

[00:13:41] So when the sort of publishing season picks up again here and probably around the rest of the world, I’m not sure, but let’s say March, that’s when it all falls over.

ANNE: Okay. Now we’re going to talk about your favorites and misses, books that missed for you. And as we are exploring how to move forward, I’ll be really interested in hearing how different you want the situation to be, or not. So that’s coming. What do you think? Are you ready to talk about the books you brought today?

NELL: Yes, I definitely am. Because these have all been really successful books for me in previous summers. So I’m hoping it will sort of remind me of why these books, I don’t know, felt so great in the time that I was reading them and make me excited to sort of pick up more like them maybe in the summer ahead.

ANNE: Okay. I like that way of choosing. You know how this works. You’re going to tell me three books you love, one book you don’t, and what you’ve been reading lately, and then we’ll talk about what you want next in your reading life and what books might fit into those desires.

[00:14:46] And you chose these because they were successful for you in previous summers. I’m noticing that word “successful”. That’s not the one a lot of readers reach for. That’s interesting. Now, what’s the first book that you love that you brought today?

NELL: Call Me By Your Name by André Aciman. It’s such an evocative book. It’s set in Italy in the 80s. It’s got a really strong sense of time and place. It’s actually big on vibes, this book. It actually is less about the plot and more about the vibes. It’s, you know, about this really intense relationship. So you get those really beautiful feelings coming out. It’s beautifully written. There’s a lot of that sense of place in terms of, you know, they’re walking, taking walks by the sea and in the woods.

I really love that atmosphere that it brings, both in the emotional atmosphere, but also the physical atmosphere. So I love that book. I really specifically remember reading it at the pool a few summers back and just absolutely gobbling it up. It was so good.

[00:15:49] ANNE: Is it just pure coincidence that you have your family ties to Italy and this book is very Italy?

NELL: No, I don’t actually think it is. I love books set in Italy. I love translated books set in Italy. I love like Elena Ferrante and all of those sorts of things. No, I don’t think that’s a coincidence. It’s something I would reach for, for sure.

ANNE: Okay. He has a new memoir out and it is, I’m sorry to say, a new book that came out in the US this fall, but there’s a lot of Italy.

NELL: Okay. That’s good to know.

ANNE: Okay. Thanks for telling us about that one. What’s the second book you love, Nell?

NELL: The second book I love is Dirt Music by Tim Winton. Look, I could have picked any of Tim Winton’s books. He is an Australian writer. He’s an activist. He’s passionate about the environment, the ocean. And that is something that really comes out in all of his work. He writes so passionately about the Australian landscape, which is quite unique, I think.

[00:16:54] I picked Dirt Music because it’s got that combination of kind of the desert and the sea in the book. Again, it’s just so evocative. And weirdly, now that I think about it, it is also about a very intense relationship between a woman in her 40s and this guy who’s a fisherman. A poacher, actually. He’s illegally fishing, and so there’s lots of drama around that. And she’s already in a relationship with someone else. So the whole thing is super intense, but so is the landscape. This is a really sweeping book in terms of sense of place. And I think that is something he does so beautifully.

ANNE: I am so excited to hear you talk about Tim Winton because I haven’t read a single one of his books, but Cloudstreet specifically has been enthusiastically recommended to me because of what I tend to love, by several readers, including some of our What Should I Read Next? alumna guests.

I downloaded Cloudstreet actually years ago at this point and haven’t read yet. Can you sell me harder on Tim Winton? Maybe this winter is my Tim Winton season.

[00:18:02] NELL: Oh, yes. Well, we’ll certainly transport you to a hot and dry landscape. Oh, he writes so lushly and vividly about Australia. I just love that. It’s nice to read about your home, especially when you love your home. That passion and that activism that he works so hard at, that really comes out in his books. You can see how much he cares about the place that he lives in.

I love that he writes with a sense of Australian-ness. I don’t know how to describe that better other than the language that he uses is very Australian and the way he talks about places is very Australian. I just really love that. And I think it’s sort of a unique thing that he does that I think would be great for international readers. If you want to get a sense of what the country is like, I think his books are a great place to start.

ANNE: Amazing. Thank you. I have Cloud Street ready and waiting for me. Now, what is your final favorite?

[00:19:05] NELL: American Wife by Curtis Sittenfeld, which I think is a little bit different to the previous two. I really love her books. I want to talk about this one because I think it’s a really good example of the type of book that I perceive would be good for summer because it’s kind of got plot but also prose.

I’m not really someone in the summer that would reach for a rom-com necessarily or a thriller or something that maybe is typically classed as a beach read. Not that I have anything against those things, but I still want a bit of a meaty book. But I also want it to be quite readable. And I think she does that really well in all her books.

I think this one is interesting because it’s a little bit of a whole of life book. The main character is Alice and you sort of go back in time to her childhood and right through to her meeting the guy that she ends up marrying who becomes the President of the United States and sort of end with her time in the White House. So I really like that as well.

[00:20:09] I know it’s based on Laura Bush, honestly, or supposedly based on Laura Bush. That is neither here nor there for me. I didn’t really know that much about Laura Bush anyway, because I am Australian, I guess. And it’s not something I felt you needed to know anything about. I just enjoyed the story for what it is.

But yeah, I think it’s just one of those books that’s smart and it’s fun. It’s a bit gossipy, but not too much. It’s really readable without sacrificing the great writing, which is important to me.

ANNE: Now, tell me about a book that was not a good fit for you. And I’d love to hear why. Like, was it not to your taste? Was the timing wrong?

NELL: Yes. Okay. So the book is Acts of Desperation by Megan Nolan. You know, this was a case of the book just actually feeling a bit too close to home for me. The writing is great, but it’s actually almost too realistic in the way it portrays a very consuming, very toxic relationship.

[00:21:09] The narrator of the book, she falls very deeply in love with this awful person who, you know, kind of reels her in and spits her out pretty brutally, I think. The book, I think, is exploring that fine line between, I guess, desire, but then also just misery.

Look, I’ve been there and I think that was partly why I just was so… yeah, I didn’t enjoy the reading experience. But I think the thing about books is that you do bring your own experiences to the text. So, for me, this was just one of those ones that I probably should have known that it wasn’t going to work.

Funnily enough, this was one that everybody was talking about. And I wanted to read it because everybody was talking about it because she was kind of this new Irish writer at the time and I wanted to pick it up. But yeah, it just… it’s not that it didn’t work for me in terms of.. I thought the writing was great and clearly very talented, but yeah, I think-

ANNE: It was a topic that was all wrong.

[00:22:10] NELL: Yes, it was a topic that was all wrong for me. And I read her second book and loved it, which came out recently, Ordinary Human Failings. So she’s great, but there’s just some things that I think, you know, yeah, you’re bringing your own stuff to it and it doesn’t work.

ANNE: That’s helpful. So you’ve mentioned two of your books portray intense relationships and you enjoy that. I haven’t read the Megan Nolan novel, but I’ve seen this described as an anti-romance and that is not for you.

NELL: Yeah, not for me. Toxic relationships in books is something I generally do not love, just purely because… yeah, I think anyone that’s kind of been in those situations probably doesn’t want to really emotionally go back there if they can avoid it.

ANNE: All right. That pen scratch sound is me making notes. No toxic relationships for Nell.

NELL: Yes.

ANNE: Nell, what have you been reading lately?

[00:23:09] NELL: Lately, I have been reading, oh, a whole bunch of stuff. I just finished my first Shirley Hazzard book, which I was obsessed with. I cannot believe I haven’t read her before. Great example of a backlist author that I have not avoided for years, but I’ve sort of has mulled in my head for a long time and I just never prioritized. And then I picked up The Bay of Noon and I loved it. Is it a coincidence that the book is set in Naples, Southern Italy? But yes, I loved that.

I have been reading some of the books from the Booker Prize long list and short list. I’ve actually read all of them. I ended up reading the whole Booker Prize long list, which was fun.

ANNE: Was that in 2024?

NELL: Yeah, in 2024. Some landed better than others for me. I loved the Tommy Orange book. I loved My Friends by Hisham Matar. I loved that book. Oh, I’ve been reading, which was on one of your guides. I think… I can’t remember which one. Maybe the Summer Reading Guide. Colored Television by Danzy Senna. Loved that book. That was so great. It was so funny and so sharp. So yeah, I gobbled that up too.

[00:24:30] ANNE: Now that’s a lovely assortment of books that have really worked for you. Of books that have… is it true they’ve all been successful?

NELL: Yes, they’ve all been successful.

ANNE: Why don’t you tell me what makes a read successful in your eyes?

NELL: I just want to be engaged with the book. I sort of talk about sometimes when I review books, I’m like, a book made my brain fizz. And I love that feeling of when I am kind of intellectually stimulated, for lack of a better word. I like that feeling, but I’m still emotionally engaged as well. That, for me, is a really successful reading experience.

I read The Alternatives by Caoilinn Hughes, the Irish writer, this year. And that is the perfect example of that. It’s so smart. It’s doing interesting things with form and structure, but at its heart, it’s still about four sisters and their lives and them trying to come together for a particular reason. And that is the emotional heart of the book.

[00:25:34] So that’s the combination that I think works best for me. Something that is smart and zingy and makes my brain fizz, but that still has an emotional resonance.

ANNE: Tell me more about agonizing over backlist selections.

NELL: Oh, yes. Why do I agonize? I think because there are so many books in the world, and I wish I could get to all of them, but I can’t. And so it’s just that sense of wanting to make good choices so that you have a really great reading summer. That is really all it is. I just really want to pick books that are going to be great for my summer reading. I’ve got time off. It’s usually a time of year that I can read loads. Things are a bit slower. You’ve got time to pick up books. And I can usually get through more reading in the summer than any other time of year.

[00:26:32] I’m not someone that likes reading in bits. I know some people are really good at taking their books to doctor’s appointments and in waiting rooms or sitting somewhere waiting for someone and you whip your book out. I’m not good at that at all. If I’m reading, I like to… my ideal reading circumstances are reading for long chunks of time, if I can.

So summer is perfect for that. I love reading books, you know, in a day or a couple of days. Like summer just gives you the opportunity to do that. I just want to pick the right books or I just want to get excited about the books that I’m about to read.

ANNE: Okay. You want to be excited about it. Let’s talk something through.

NELL: Okay.

ANNE: Even though it feels like so many new books are out and available and ready for us to read, that selection is more limited than our selection of all the backlist titles that have ever been published prior to 2024 stands.

NELL: Yes.

[00:27:39] ANNE: Is there something there? I’m playing with that versus the wanting to talk to people about the books.

NELL: Yeah, I think you’re maybe right there because I can talk to people about any book is the reality. I think it’s nice. I like the communal experience about talking about the same book. But at the end of the day, one of the really lovely things about being online in the book world is that you can always talk about books. So I don’t really think it’s necessarily that.

I think the choice just overwhelms me, I guess, with new releases. Yeah, it is true. There is a set amount of what’s being published and a lot of the same books will appear on the same lists and the same most anticipated books of 2020, whatever. So you kind of have a very definite sense of maybe what’s available to you in that year. But I think with backlist reading, it is a little bit different in the history of time. There have been billions of books published and where do you even start with that?

[00:28:38] ANNE: That’s really helpful what you said. So you want to be excited about the book you’re going to pick up next. With a new book, it’s easy to be excited because there’s buzz. People are talking about it and it feels like there’s a reason to read it now. But when you’re by yourself looking at your shelves, because you mentioned in your submission you had a ton of books that you were excited about at one point, that’s why you had them. And now, putting words in your mouth, try this on, see how it feels, you’re not not excited about them, but you’re not looking at the bookshelf going, oh yes, that now. That’s not the vibe.

So you need a reason to reach for that specific book over the other ones because it’s the right book for you right now.

NELL: Yes, I think that’s definitely true. And maybe that’s why the summer thing is important because there is a vibe in the summer that I want to match my books to, which maybe is about sense of place or is about smart but readable texts that I can just whiz through because that is a feeling I love in the summer.

[00:29:38] ANNE: I’m excited for you. I mean, Nell, you can hear yourself. Like, “Here I am. I’m a reader. I’ve got time to read. I want to sink into something. What should it be?”

NELL: Yes.

ANNE: What a picture! I’m excited for you and you need books worthy of your open readerly hands.

NELL: Yes, that’s so true. Worthy is my vibe. Yes, Anne. I love that. Yes. They need to be worthy of me. That’s what I need.

ANNE: Let’s do this. You ready?

NELL: Yes. I’m ready.

ANNE: The books you loved were Call Me By Your Name by André Aciman, Dirt Music by the Australian gem Tim Winton, and American Wife by Curtis Sittenfeld. Not for you, Acts of Desperation by Megan Nolan. And Anti-Romance is not for you. Not now. Maybe not ever. Not ever?

NELL: Maybe. We’ll see.

[00:30:35] ANNE: Okay. It doesn’t matter. We are talking about this summer, not all the summers to come.

NELL: Yes.

ANNE: And lately, you’ve been reading a bunch of good stuff that has really ticked all your boxes including The Bay of Noon by Shirley Hazzard. Let me just say her MO was to spend 10 years writing each of her novels. She labored over them. She put them out into the world. She had a long career that didn’t generate an unmanageable body of work. So you could hang out with some Shirley Hazzard books for a while. I think she could be worthy of your vibe.

We’ve talked about The Transit of Venus and The Great Fire on this podcast. And when you described it, a book that you find successful makes your brain fizz and also keeps you emotionally engaged, I thought, oh, The Transit of Venus, oh, The Great Fire, oh, I can see why the Shirley Hazzard book, The Bay of Noon was a fit for you.

NELL: Oh, good. Yeah, I definitely want to read more of her now. I was surprised that she had so few novels, actually. I don’t know why. I know she was born in Australia, but she lived all over the world. So really more a citizen of the world, I would say.

[00:31:41] ANNE: She was a fascinating lady.

NELL: Yes. So fascinating. And I immediately was like, what else can I read from her? And I was surprised that there wasn’t actually that many. But maybe that’s good for my choice issues.

ANNE: Well, how many have you read?

NELL: One.

ANNE: Okay. Great. You got nothing but choices.

NELL: Yeah, that’s true.

ANNE: And it’s Shirley Hazzard novel. Could stand up to re-reading as well.

NELL: Oh, I think so.

ANNE: Yeah. If you want to start again with The Bay of Noon, that doesn’t sound that bad.

NELL: No. Definitely not.

ANNE: What do you think about Sarah Winman?

NELL: I have read one of her books, the one set in Italy, but I haven’t read anything… I don’t think I’ve read anything else by her.

ANNE: It was indeed Still Life that I had in mind. I don’t think Tin Man would be a bad pick for you at all.

NELL: Okay.

ANNE: So this is the story of two men who at the moment we meet them in the mid-90s we know that they have a history. They’ve been through some things together. They knew each other when they were young, but life has taken them in different directions and not necessarily the places they wanted to go.

[00:32:51] The story is melancholy. Oh, I should have told you it starts in Oxford, though some scenes take place in London. So we move back and forth in time. It’s not a linear story and we meet these two men and we find out how they ended up where they are. One of them is still grieving the death of his wife five years ago. One of them is caring for a former lover, I think back in London, and he’s very ill. And I don’t want to give any spoilers.

But we find out that these two men who are involved in grieving one relationship and in caring for a lover in the present day have a history with each other and that one considers the other the love of his life. And so as the narrative shifts back and forth in time, we learn the secret history of what went on between them and how they ended up where they are now.

So this book is very much about love and grief and friendship and loss. There’s art woven in, as Sarah Winman also does. How does that sound to you?

[00:33:58] NELL: That sounds so good. I also love the English setting. I have spent a lot of time in London and England in general and I love books set there. So that sounds great.

ANNE: Okay. I’m glad to hear it. Next I’m thinking about a book that feels fresh, that might feel zingy. I wouldn’t say it feels summery, but I think it could be really interesting to you and also keep you emotionally engaged. Have you read Whale Fall by Elizabeth O’Connor?

NELL: No. I don’t know this book at all.

ANNE: It’s a debut. You wouldn’t know O’Connor from previous work. It’s a short little book. I listened to the audio and it was, I think, barely over three hours. Slim. It’s this really interesting little novel set in, I think, 1938, just on the cusp of World War II on this remote island in… oh, pop quiz. I want to say it’s in the British Isles. Maybe it’s Welsh.

[00:35:02] But this island is tiny. It’s just three miles long. There’s only 12 families who live there. The population is under 50. And our protagonist is this 18-year-old young woman named Manod. And she knows… well, what she knows is that this island is really small and she’s grown up her whole life watching, not very many people because there aren’t very many people, but she’s watched people come of age and leave. The women do it by getting married, the men get jobs or go off to school, and she wants a way out. So we meet this young woman who’s coming of age on this island and she’s feeling claustrophobic. So that’s an interesting little backdrop.

Into this mix, two things happen. First, a whale washes up on the shore and the people aren’t quite sure what to do. It’s this brooding presence that happens early enough in the novel that it practically affects the people on the island, but also emotionally permeates the atmosphere of the novel.

[00:35:59] But also these two anthropologists come to the island and they… I’m not going to say they’re up to no good, but they are definitely up to their own purposes. And they cause some relationship complications on a small level and then on a community level in the island.

And also we get to see Manod see her community through the lens of the anthropologists. And it’s clear to her, like, Hang on, they have this story they want to tell, but it’s not actually the truth of the life I know on this island.

So we have this young woman coming of age, figuring out who she is, who she wants to be, where she is, and where she wants to be in the world. And you know what I didn’t tell you? Another layer in this story of complicated relationships, among other things, is we know her mother’s missing from the very beginning, but we don’t know why. And that also kind of hangs over this story.

[00:36:54] So I feel like I’ve parceled out a bunch of plot threads, but this is a very compact book that feels very sure of what it wants to be. And I think you’re really going to like the prose.

How’s this sounding to you?

NELL: That sounds great as well. Again, I think that British Isle feel… would have a very strong sense of place. I imagine it’s such a distinct vibe there. So yeah, that sounds great. And I like that it’s got a little bit of mystery without that being the whole plot of the book, but it’s there. So it kind of keeps you reading and turning the pages. That sounds great.

And it’s short. I love that. I love to read a book in a day. Yes, I love that.

ANNE: If you don’t like to read in brief snippets, maybe you could read this in one long one.

NELL: Exactly. Yes. That is honestly something that is one of my favorite things to do in the summer especially, if you obviously have the time. But yeah, I can literally sit on my couch and read the whole afternoon. Oh, what a treat. I love it.

[00:37:55] ANNE: Aw, I love the description of a book in a sitting is a treat.

NELL: Yes.

ANNE: That makes me want to pour a cup of something, maybe you something cold, me something hot, and go do exactly that.

NELL: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. Now, this year you’ve read the Booker long list. I’m wondering if you did last year, because I’d really like to tell you about The House of Doors.

NELL: Oh, I did read that last year.

ANNE: Was it a good fit for you?

NELL: Yeah, it was great. Yes, yes. I’ve read nothing else by that author. I know nothing about him. I think his other work is meant to be great too, but I haven’t read it.

ANNE: I have not read anything else by him either. I’ve heard good things about The Garden of Enigmas, but I have no personal experience.

NELL: Oh, right.

ANNE: Am I allowed to recommend an Australian book to you from my home in Kentucky?

NELL: Yes, please.

ANNE: Have you read Meg Mason’s debut, You Be Mother?

NELL: I don’t think I’ve read You Be Mother. I’ve read Sorrow and Bliss.

ANNE: Because that was a big book.

NELL: That was a big book. I loved it, obviously.

[00:38:56] ANNE: That was one that everybody was talking about. Did you enjoy talking about that with your fellow readers?

NELL: I sure did. Yes, yes. No, that was really good. Yes. No. Okay. Let’s talk about that.

ANNE: So this is her first novel. It’s called You Be Mother. The title actually comes from pouring tea, not actually from familial relationships, which is interesting. I thought that was kind of fun when it’s explained in the text.

But this is another story about an intense relationship, but it’s not a romantic one. This is about a life-giving friendship between two women of different generations. In this book, oh gosh, it hasn’t been that long since I read it, but let me think what happens. Let me think what happens.

So Abi is in the UK, she’s a student, and she meets and falls in love with this young man, I think his name is Stu, when he spends one semester in the UK away from his Australian home to study. Then he finishes his semester, he goes back home, and life goes on until Abi finds out she’s pregnant.

[00:40:05] What we learn about Abi is she’s had a really sad childhood. Her dad and a sibling of hers died many years ago when she was young, and her mother was never able to cope and has effectively, emotionally, and almost physically checked out of her life.

Abi mothers her more than the other way around. Abi’s I believe still a teenager in this book, she’s 18 or 19 years old. She needs her mom, but instead she’s playing mom to her mother. Oh, this is interesting. I’m just thinking about the title in a new light. I don’t know if there’s anything there or not. I’m going to have to think about that.

But she meets Stu, she’s never had a boyfriend before, she falls in love, she doesn’t understand protection, she gets pregnant, and then he goes back to Australia. And she’s like, “Well, I don’t know, he has a whole life there. I don’t have much of a life here. I’m not really excited about my studies. I don’t want to do the thing I’m getting a degree for. I can go to Sydney, it’ll be fine.” And so that’s what she does.

[00:41:01] And Stu’s like, “Okay, cool, whatever, I can go with the flow. Sure, come to Australia, we’ll have a baby. It’ll be great. So she does come to Australia, with a baby, who is very young at the time she leaves, and… poor Abi. Abi has more going on than any young woman should have to handle alone in her life. Because Stu, he’s there, but he’s not the help you would want for this fictional character when you see the circumstances she’s in.

So Abi’s in Sydney. Stu’s no help. Stu’s dad is kind of a nice guy. He’s sympathetic to Abi, but his mom is kind of the worst, makes Abi feel even more alone. Stu’s mom is very into the baby, though, not into Abi at all.

But Abi becomes accidental friends with a woman a little older than her mother, who lives nearby. And I don’t remember how they meet, but from the beginning, like each season the other something that they need.

[00:42:02] Phil, just her four children don’t let her mother them the way she wants to, and the way that she thinks they need to be mothered. And here’s Abi, who very clearly needs a lot of mothering, and is very happy to receive it. And from Abi’s perspective, she doesn’t have any help, she doesn’t have any support, she doesn’t have anyone to talk to, and she’s lonely. And also she has a baby, and she’s never raised a baby before. She doesn’t have peers. She doesn’t have friends. She doesn’t have a job. She doesn’t know what to do. But in steps her neighbor who says, “Oh, sweetie, let me help.”

This friendship fills the gap for both of them, and they develop a really important, really powerful bond. Previously, they’d been so lonely, and now they have each other. But Phil does have children, and they’re getting into trouble.

And they are not so sure how they feel about their mother’s relationship with this young stranger who came from someone else and just had… like, what? What? This is weird. They don’t understand. This friendship doesn’t make any sense to them, and they are skeptical and think Abi’s probably up to no good.

[00:43:07] Stu, for his part, thinks, “You got me, babe. Why do you need this stranger? Like, what’s going on?” So both women, in their own lives independently, are about to be put through the ringer, and their relationship is tested as well. And it doesn’t come out so great for a while, but this is a story with a happy ending where everyone ends in an okay place.

There is a real bad relationship in here, but it is a subplot. I just want you to know, since you said an anti-romance was not your vibe.

NELL: Yes, that sounds amazing. I love that it’s set in Sydney. What a bonus! I feel like it’s very rare to have books set in Sydney, weirdly. I’m not saying there’s none that exist. Obviously, there are. But there’s a big literary scene in Melbourne, so I feel like a lot of Australian writers and books are kind of coming from a Melbourne perspective. So it’s always delightful when Sydney makes an appearance. So good.

ANNE: Well, I’m glad from halfway around the world, in the U.S., I could deliver up a, what to me was a completely novel Sydney book. You’ll be reading it in a whole new way. And I’d love to hear if you found Sydney depicted like the Sydney you know.

[00:44:16] NELL: Yes, definitely. I’m excited.

ANNE: Now, of the books we talked about today, they were Tin Man by Sarah Winman, Whale Fall by Elizabeth O’Connor, and You Be Mothered by Meg Mason, of those titles, what do you think you may pick up next?

NELL: I think I’m going to go the Meg Mason because I am excited to read something set in this city that I love. That’s really cool.

ANNE: I’m so glad to hear it. I can’t wait to hear what you think. Nell, this has been a pleasure. Thanks so much for talking books with me today.

NELL: Well, thank you so much for having me. I’ve loved it. Really, really appreciate it. Thanks, Anne.

ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nell today, and I’d love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Nell on Instagram @NellReadsBooks, and find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

[00:45:10] We hang out on Instagram @WhatShouldIReadNext, where you will find updates for each week’s new episode and other readerly inspirations.

Sign up for our email list so you’re always in the know of what’s happening on the show and at What Should I Read Next? HQ. Do that at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Following us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts is one of the simplest and really concrete ways to help support our show and other shows you love. Your downloads, follows, and subscriptions on these platforms really make a difference. These statistics help our show get discovered by new listeners and help make sure in that way that our team gets paid. We really value that around here.

If you’re not just subscribed or following on your favorite podcast platform, it’s a quick step that really does make a difference.

Thanks to the people who made this episode happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wilkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Productions. Readers, that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, “Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading.” Happy reading, everyone.